74 odpowiedzi w tym temacie

[budo_amrii]

Chciałbym abyśmy w tym wątku wymieniali się swoimi pomysłami i doświadczeniami
Z używaniem różnych rzeczy do samoobrony ale takich które spełniają kilka warunków
A mianowicie:

Po 1 Są w miarę bezpieczne
Czyli podczas użycia jest mała szansa na to że przeciwnikowi naszemu zrobimy trwałą krzywde
Więc wszelkie ostre przedmioty odpadają na starcie.

Po 2 legalne
Czyli wszelkiego rodzaju nunchaku, kastety i inne miecze samurajskie ukryte w zapalniczce odpadają.

Po 3 nie są to jakieś improwizowane rzeczy które można wykorzystać w czasie ataku tylko przedmioty które specjalnie nosimy przy sobie na wszelki wypadek.

Po 4 są poręczne
Czyli możemy je zabrać zawsze i wszędzie, nie są specjalnie widoczne np. możemy schować je do kieszeni, wszystkie większe gadżety odpadają.

Mi przychodzą na myśl 4 takie przedmioty:

Gaz – jak wiadomo nie zawsze skuteczny ale w ogromnej większości przypadków się sprawdza, za małolata takie ustrojstwo uratowało mi tyłek kilkanaście razy.

Kubotan – mały można nosić przy kluczach może zadać wiele bólu i nie zrobi większego spustoszenia chyba że na prawdę tego chcemy.

Baton – może robić za Kubotan i tak jak on nie zagraża życiu i poważnym uszczerbkom na zdrowiu chyba że posiadacz wyraźnie się o to postara no i można się nim skutecznie bronić przed nożem.

Paralizator – fajna zabawka ale nie wiem czy w stresującej sytuacji i przez grubą odzież zadziała tak jak by jego właściciel tego chciał.

[budo_cabelo]

Może z nr 4 trochę się, nomen omen, gryzie, ale poprzednie spełnia :wink:

[budo_dxa]

[link widoczny dla zalogowanych Użytkowników]

Może z nr 4 trochę się, nomen omen, gryzie, ale poprzednie spełnia :wink:

Z nr 1 tez sie troszke gryzie

[budo_-war-]

Najlepszy przedmiot do samoobrony to własny mózg z włączoną opcją "myslenie"

[budo_cabelo]

Z nr 1 tez sie troszke gryzie

Oj tam, dobrze ułożony pies jakiejś trwałej krzywdy nie zrobi... dopóki pan nie każe :twisted:

[budo_jerz]

Duży pęk kluczy na smyczy.
Nie miałem okazji nigdy skorzystać ale myślę że zadziałało by całkiem nieźle.

[budo_cabelo]

O, jeszcze a propo kluczy

Oczywiście dopóki grzmocimy po flakach, a nie pchamy do oczu itd.

[budo_tharfin]

MArmurowy słonik(kamień) w skarpecie.

[budo_kushee]

Podaje sposob podobny do tego jaki rzucil Tharfin.
Moj ojciec wiele lat temu, gdy zadarl z metami z ulicy, zmontowal sobie cos w rodzaju mocnego worka stylizowanego na sakiewke i tam powrzucal mase drobniakow. Nie wiem czy takie cos jest legalne, ale przeciez moniaki nie sa nielegalne i posiadanie sakiewki, w ktorej je trzymasz tez nie
No, ale zalezy jak sad zakwalifikuje itd. Zawsze jest to jakies przedluzenie reki.

Problem byl taki, ze to dzwonilo i szeleszczalo niesamowicie dlatego na zmontowaniu sie tylko skonczylo (nie chodzil z tym) Do tego dosc ciezkie jak na noszenie w kieszeni i mocno widoczne. Ale pomysl wcale nie taki durny. Gdyby przywalil to jestem w stanie sie zalozyc, ze czaszka napastnika peklaby jak zapalka.
Zobaczyl to kiedys w jakims filmie.

Ps. Amrii- nie sadze, aby cokolwiek moglo spelniac wymagania, ktore postawiles. Prawo do obrony "sprzetem" jest w tym kraju tak skomplikowane i niejednoznaczne, mozna je tak swobodnie interpretowac... Chodzi o to ze teoretycznie tluczek do miesa tez niby nie jest nielegalny, dosc latwo go schowac, ale gdybys sie nim obronil i uszkodzil napastnika to nie wiem czy przed sadem bys sie wybronil...

[budo_poncho]

A propos tych kluczy. Znalazłem kiedyś coś takiego u siebie na osiedlu:

"Urządzenie" jest rozkładane. Na fotce poniżej jest złożone.


Część u góry to chyba "futerał"




Kolec bardzo dobrze trzyma się w zaciśniętej pięści, więc chyba do tego jest przeznaczony, ale pewny nie jestem. Może w zamyśle miała to być wykałaczka.

[budo_tharfin]

Fajne rzeczy znajdujesz na osiedlu
Jeszcze zawsze można karabińczyk z kawałkiem paracordu :wink:
A jeśli ktoś chce sobie posparować to polecam skarpetę plus piłeczkę tenisową i można się lać do woli

[budo_poncho]

Fajne rzeczy znajdujesz na osiedlu

No, kiedyś jeszcze na śmietniku znalazłem nabój 5,45 x 39 mm. A kiedy indziej na tym samym śmietniku działający dysk 4 GB.

[budo_radnus]

z początku pomyślałem, że to zwykła agrafka, a potem, ze to spinka do włosów;D lol


zaciekawił mnie kubotan - w razie gwałtu (jako napastnik) można go użyć jako korka analnego - co o tym sądzicie?




he-he-he :twisted:

[budo_domr]

Skórzany pas wojskowy z solidną klamrą, o ile taki nosi się na codzień Wyciągnięcie ze spodzieniaszków trwa chwilę, a klamerka działa jak złoto. Sam pas też dobrze się sprawdza: np. do przyduszenia, a nawet skrępowania delikwenta. Uderzenia sprawdzone.

pozdrav,
Dom

[budo_cabelo]

Poza tym działa psychologicznie - każdy napastnik zwątpi, gdy na jego widok z szelmowskim uśmiechem zaczniesz rozpinać spodnie...

[budo_thufir hawat]

Trzeba dodać po piąte: można je łatwo wyjąc i zastosować. Klucze między palcami wyglądają bardzo cool, ale jaki napastnik pozwoli ci je ładnie ułożyć w dłoni podczas napadu? Dlatego Jim Grover i Lee Morrison zalecają trzymanie jednego klucza między kciukiem i palcem wskazującym (jak przy otwieraniu drzwi) i masakrowanie nim twarzy przeciwnika. Wątpie tez, czy przeciwnik pozwoli ci zdjąć pas i nim wywijać.
A w ogóle to znalazłem ciekawe wypowiedzi Micka Coupa dotyczący improwizowanej broni:

Believe it or not mate, you're better off hitting someone with your hands than most of the 'improvised weapons' out there, including keys.

Ripping lumps out of someone isn't actually as effective as a good solid bang in the head - messy but not a high-percentage 'stop'. It's true that you can turn anything into a weapon, but it's usually a crap weapon if you look at it objectively! Unless it gives a distinct advantage, such as increased 'stopping' (not just wounding - big difference) power, range and/or durability it generally falls into the 'gimmick' category.


Generally there's 3 certain ways of stopping a human:

1. Kill them - actually very difficult, regardless of what movies you've seen, plus outside of the moral reach for most.

2. Incapacitate via trauma - causing so much injury that the person is physically incapable of doing anything offensive, including pulling a trigger. Very difficult and distasteful for most - would be an aerobic workout with a key or pen implement.

3. Incapacitate via knock out - actually the easiest and most accessible of all the above. Can't be done effectively by any means other than direct impact to the head/neck area. Puncture/slash wounds won't have this effect.

I personally hate 'gimmicks' and tricks that are pushed out as real solutions, attacking the eyes with the thumbs is as effective, more in fact, than going mad with a key - especially for women.

A lot of this stuff looks more effective than it really is, and there is always the thought of the slashing etc scaring people to the point where they back off - problem is, that's an awfully big positive assumption to make, I've used all manner of 'tools' for real and it's not as simple as that - more often than not it drives the aggressor into a panic/frenzy and amidst all the red mess I've had to revert back to 'speed dial #1' and just bang a big dose of sleep into them!

I teach everything from empty hands, to impact and bladed weapons all the way to the tactical use of personal firearms, and I have taught the use of improvised and concealed weapons extensively, including to specialist military units from various countries, not to mention having used virtually every conceivable object as a weapon throughout various live encounters - the point I'm making here is that some things are effective, and that some things are gimmicks that don't perform as well for real as they do in training - often they may look 'nasty' but can be a hinderance in actual usage.

A lighter and weaker person can render a man unconscious - during the late 80's I was teaching women almost exclusively as an advisor for a division of the Metropolitan Police and used to subject them to padded assailant drills using some of the first FIST gear in the UK, we had numerous big tough padded assailants knocked clean out by some tiny girls who just got stuck in with basic repeated strikes. I did cover improvised sharp weapons on that course also, but mainly as anti-grappling tools, with any space it's all about impact if you're giving away weight and/or strength, as it's the most efficient way of delivering 'stopping' force to an individual.

As I stated in my earlier post, any item can be transformed into a weapon, this is true. But it's usually a CRAP weapon! In the vast majority of cases a simple bare hand blow, not even from an especially powerful person, will produce more stopping power. Period!

The crucial thing is that most items such as keys and pens will cause a superficial wound only. It's a malicious thing, that's all. This stuff isn't training theory to me, I assure you. Forget Hollywood stuff when it comes to 'fashionable' improvised weapons. It's generally all bollocks!

The amazing 'access' sequences of grabbing some 'innocuous' item and employing sometimes elaborate blows, are most often ridiculous if you stop to think "Could I have just piled in barehanded instead?" - as the answer is generally "Yes" and you'd be landing credible shots long before you would have some half-cooked 'weapon' in your hand!

My advice is to only consider using something as a weapon if it affords a real and distinct advantage concerning reach and/or stopping power.

If it doesn't it is a foolish gimmick that will probably make a situation worse and prolonged.

I'm not talking mere cynicism here - you name it and I've more than likely had a real go with it! I taught the use of such items to an 'interesting' group once upon a time, and it quickly became apparent with research, practice and actual use 'operationally' what worked, better than a bare hand, and what didn't.

Making lots of little holes in someone with a pen or a key looks fabulously deadly in a movie, but is a different reality when done for real - it's messy and might dissuade a half-hearted attacker (wish I had more of that type!) but a decent right hand will end the encounter. It's as simple as that.

If getting shot and stabbed with real purpose-built weapons, several times, won't stop committed attackers, what is your biro, key, mobile phone or 'tactical' (ie is black and has a clip!) torch going to do? Get real for goodness sake! As I've stated so many times already, wounding isn't enough - it's 'stopping' that needs to be done, and surpisingly enough this can be done often more easily with an empty hand. The blunt empty hand causes head 'displacement' and shakes the brain - whereas a sharp pointy object causes penetration, but little head movement. Jagged slashes across a face may cause someone to back off, but they have next to no 'stopping' power - so they may do the exact opposite - you wouldn't stop me with a facial wound, or any number of guys that I know, you'd just start me properly.

Sharp pointy things like pens are great for breaking a clinch - sometimes! They rely on pain, which is a wholly subjective animal. They can be used to extract passively resisting people from vehicles etc. In short they work on people you don't actually need to use them on.

You want to have a real fight with a credit card, pen, mobile? Get ready to be VERY surprised. Just a note on using a mobile phone here - as Rob stated above most of the units currently out there don't improve upon the Mk1 hand at all - in terms of weight or durability - and tactically it is a VERY bad idea to destroy a means of communication in such an emergency - just a thought.

Sticking a pen, or pencil, key, in any fashion, into someone's neck is far less efficient than a good bang on the jaw - when it comes to instantly incapacitating someone.

You're talking about wounding, not stopping, someone - and that won't be enough.

Are you trying to end the attack through making the guy bleed to death? I hope you're a patient man! What effect will it have upon the guy? Do you think that some crazy will just stop and either a) roll over, or run away, when you stab him in the neck with your pen or key? Maybe you'll make the situation a whole lot worse for yourself, when you could have ended it early.

Sure you can puncture a major blood vessel, with enough holes to cause a massive bleed-out, but this is the only way it's going to be effective - talking of movies this would be the 'Casino' method - are you really prepared to do that, or do you just tell yourself that you could, at the time? Don't take killing a man for granted.

Ask, could that situation have been resolved with blows to the jaw? Of course it could, but they needed to establish the character's viciousness, so something extreme was used.

Using a pen mid-fight? We're talking 'Bourne Identity' I suppose - fabulous fight-scene I agree, very nasty, but the pen was ineffective - even in the scene!

Stop looking for the same gimmicks that Hollywood looks for - they're trying to give the audience something new and exciting, whereas you can more than make do with a plain-old punch or elbow to the jaw!

Think 'stopping power' everytime. When you consider the use of any small item as an improvised weapon apply these tests:

1. Can it produce instant incapacitation like a basic punch-type technique?

2. Can it be instantly accessed like a basic punch-type technique?

3. Will it withstand repeated use like a basic punch-type technique?

If you get just one 'No' then stick to the punch.

If you can 'pick something up and hit someone', then fine - but you could have just 'hit someone' - even the sentence is shorter and easier to say! Do you get the point?

Anything held in the hand limits the hand - so it had better be worth it!

Small hard heavy objects that increase impact by virtue of weight and/or striking surface are real improvised weapons - such as rocks, pool balls, steam irons etc. What real damage is a mobile phone going to do? Less than a punch without it, is the real answer.

The best use for handheld objects like phones and the like that have no combative stopping power is that of 'Distraction' - throw the item at the face and follow-up with good solid explosive shots to the primary targets. Either 'casually' flick/toss the thing and pile in, or full-on 'launch' the object for maximum 'flinch' distraction, then unload with all you've got.

This way, everything CAN actually become a weapon, but of DISTRACTION. Even a screwed up piece of paper, food/drink, a wallet, a coat - something you might actually have in your hand at the time!

I realise that what I'm outlining above might be controversial - to some, but those of you that have 'been there' and not just 'researched' or 'practised' it, know the truth of the matter.

Don't rely on gimmicks.

I most definately don't discount the use of certain items as weapons - the ashtray definately fits my criteria of an object that lends weight and decent striking surface - and it used to be one of my weapons of choice in a bar situation - however it has to be said that they can disintegrate under repeated heavy use and I have the marks on my hand to prove it!

I don't completely discount the use of the pen either - again it used to be one of the main tools I taught to a certain group of professionals once upon a time, and I have used it on several occasions. Read above and you will see that I wholeheartedly agree that repeated blows to the neck will cause potentially fatal blows - but then ask yourself how many people would be prepared to do that?

As for screwdrivers and suchlike, I don't even class these as 'improvised' weapons - they are the real thing!

I disagree in some ways with the notion of pyschological advantage - in that I believe any 'perceived' advantage can be dangerous, if it is merely pyschological, and not physical. Not discounting the pyschological aspects of combat obviously, without will there is no chance, but ultimately the immediate problem is fairly physical after all!

I am brutally honest when I teach, and when I learn, I want a 'real' advantage, not just a 'pyschological' one. Just because you or I can perform in the extreme, doesn't enable everyone else to. Like I have stated earlier, I believe many people ignore the gravity of certain issues - to a point that believing that they can blind and maim, and kill, is taken for granted.

I would rather focus on solid dependable skills, that I know will be employed when needed, rather than something so extreme that it will require a superhuman act of resolve to execute - maybe. We play the hand we are dealt in life mate, it is better to realise limitations and seek ways to avoid, than to fool ourselves into a false sense of security, with perceived abilities.

I have seen people fight on with the most horrific wounds, that often I have caused, and still pose a very real threat - and in the line of work that I choose I will most probably see so again. Stab wounds are often perceived as punches, and only take effect when shock sets in, so this in itself proves that wounding is not instantly incapacitating. Often stab, and gunshot, victims do not realise they have been wounded until after the incident - sometimes even being alerted to the fact by a third party. And they might have even 'won' the encounter!

What I do know, for a fact, is that an unconscious man poses zero threat, compared to a severely-wounded man who might go either way; curl up in a ball or make a frenzied last-ditch assault.

But my main reason for the cynical approach to the current fashion of 'improvised weapons' - which you must concede can start to get a little ridiculous, is to encourage people to stop looking at 'gimmicks' to give a quick fix - and leave that to the 'ninja/special agent' subculture types (apologies to any real ninjas/special agents out there!).

I will always steer people interested in REAL self-protecion away from such things and concentrate instead on the core skills. If you are some covert-operative - fine, one day you might want to drive a stainless-steel pen into someone's subclavial region, or a gangland enforcer might elect to 'stripe' a rival with a credit card as punishment, or maybe you want to 'plunge' another convict on the landing with a sharpened heat-hardened toothbrush handle - but I guarantee a simple, boring, punch on the jaw, or two or three, with plenty of practice will serve you better.

Apologies for the rant guys - but it's a pet hate!

Mick

Pozdrawiam, Thufir

[budo_cabelo]

Trzeba dodać po piąte: można je łatwo wyjąc i zastosować. Klucze między palcami wyglądają bardzo cool, ale jaki napastnik pozwoli ci je ładnie ułożyć w dłoni podczas napadu?

Jako że nie noszę ze sobą żadnych gazów, batonów, noży czy granatów, jeżeli widzę że może się zdarzyć coś nieprzyjemnego, idę sobie z ręką w kieszeni, i tam na spokojnie mogę sobie ułożyć te klucze jak mi się podoba, bez afiszowania się z tym, żeby w razie czego móc tego użyć.

Co do tego tekstu, to błędnie zakłada on, że broniącemu się chodzi o zrobienie z napastnika sita, tudzież wyprucie mu flaków tym kluczem. Nie ma szans, przywalenie czymś takim nawet dość mocno w ubranego przeciwnika nie przebije skóry. Za to zmniejszenie powierzchni uderzeniowej powoduje większy ból. Nie wiem dlaczego miałoby to powodować zmniejszenie siły stopującej. Jak przypierdzielisz tym w łeb, to klucz się po prostu ześlizgnie, jak dobrze pójdzie, powodując rozcięcie skóry, a piącha i tak dojdzie celu.

[budo_emkade]

gorzej jak kluczem trafisz w oko, bedzie musial delikwent w pirackiej opasce chodzic

[budo_cabelo]

dlatego napisałem

Oczywiście dopóki grzmocimy po flakach, a nie pchamy do oczu itd.

To o dawaniu tym sprzętem w pysk było tylko w odniesieniu do tekstu wklejonego przez Thufira, którego autor zakładał obronę przed napastnikiem zdeterminowanym żeby za wszelką cenę nam zrobić bubu.

[budo_blt]

Fajne rzeczy znajdujesz na osiedlu

No, kiedyś jeszcze na śmietniku znalazłem nabój 5,45 x 39 mm. A kiedy indziej na tym samym śmietniku działający dysk 4 GB.