Jesli ktos ma troche czasu to moze byloby niezle to przetlumaczyc na polski i zamiescic gdzies na stale?
I don't claim to have any hard answers to this subject, and don't necessarily disagree with what Ellis has to say about it. What Ellis proposes is definitely one possible scenario (that of misunderstanding what the "traditional" methods in DR/Aikido represent historically).
There are other possibilities and factors though that I'd like to offer for consideration:
1)Swordsmanship & Jujutsu.
Sokaku appears to have specialized in swordsmanship prior to 1875. In 1876, Sokaku spent a few weeks with Saigo Tanomo before leaving for Kyushu. 1877/1878 is when Sokaku is reported to have fought a karate-ka using empty handed sword techniques. Though it is likely that Sokaku had already been exposed to some level of jujutsu (the Aizu area had a great deal of martial arts active at that time), he would have still been primarily a swordsman, so his use of sword technique empty handed tends to make sense - to me at least. Sokaku was only just staring his period of musha-shugyo at that time. Jujutsu is largely based on sword techniques anyway, and even Ueshiba based much of his tactics and taisabaki off of swordsmanship.
2) Oshikiuchi.
It is said in Daito-ryu that at least one of the three major influences for Sokaku's revival of "Daito-ryu" is "Aizu Oshikiuchi", the other two being the Takeda family art and Sokaku's own experiences. Oshikiuchi may in fact be an incorrect homophone for an unknown combination of kanji (guessed at by someone transcribing for Sokaku), since Sokaku is the sole (known) source for this term, and he was illiterate and spoke with a difficult accent (high pitched voice and no front teeth). He may not have known the meaning of the kanji used for "oshikiuchi", and may also have incorrectly understood/remembered the term as (possibly) repeated to him by Saigo Tanomo. Any paperwork that Sokaku may have had regarding the art prior to his own lifetime is said to have been lost/destroyed. There are some family records still kept in the Ise shrine in Fukushima, but it is unknown (to me at least) what the content of these documents is.
Anyway, Aizu Oshikuchi is a major part of what post-Sokaku Daito-ryu claims to be derived from, and references to this art being a combative set of techniques for use within Edo castle during the Tokugawa period can be found in all the major orthodox branches of Daito-ryu. Kondo Katsuyuki actually re-posted a geneology chart for Aizu Oshikiuchi in his 2001 "Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu" DVD (BAB). In it, the well known Lord Hoshina Masayuki is credited as being the founding developer of Oshikiuchi (also known possibly as "Otome waza no Aizu-han" [Aizu otomewaza; Otome-ryu; Aizu Odome] and/or "Aiki no In/Yo-ho").
Lord Takeda Kunitsugu, grandson of the famous Takeda Shingen, went to Aizu in 1574 to deliver Shingen's last will and testament to his ally Ashina Moriuji, ruler of Aizu. Kunitsugu was given land and a position by Ashina, and ended up staying in Aizu and continuing the last main line of the Kai-Genji Takeda family there. Kunitsugu was an advisor to Hoshina Masayuki, who worked in Edo castle, and may have taught the Takeda family art to him (Hoshina had also been a vassal to Takeda Shingen, and it is said that the Takeda art was opened up and taught to officials within the Aizu-han in any event).
After Hoshina Masayuki, 10 other inheritors of the art are listed, ending with Hoshina Chikanori (Tanomo Saigo) and Takeda Sokaku in the last position. Throughout most of the art's history, various Matsudaira daimyo are listed as the inheritors. So to me it seems quite possible that something related to the Takeda family was taught within Edo castle, and that such methods would have included techniques from seiza.
I've also heard/read from a number of sources that edged weapons were not allowed to be drawn within Edo castle - by anyone, and that this is the reason why empty handed defenses were created against emtpy handed AND armed attacks. This is something that is also tramsmitted in the history of Masaki-ryu manrikigusari, hence the creation of a weighted chain for defense against edged weapon attacks. Is this Edo castle rule false? I understand of course that defense against weapon attacks is no picnic for anyone, but a hatamoto or body guard in teh castle highly trained in martial arts would certainly have had some kind of edge over a lesser trained attacker. Many of the defenses involve nullifying the attack before the attacker's weapon is employed as well, which also seems practical if pulled off correctly.
Other ryu-ha may have techniques from idori and/or hanza handachi, but in the case of Daito-ryu, there is a context specific claim to why, where and when they were used (indoors, inside a castle). This seems like something that can be verified or dismissed through academic research. Interestingly, if the Takeda family methods originally contained idori and hanza-handachi techniques prior to Hoshina Masayuki's modifications, then they more than likely would have been quite like the methods that Ellis described from Takenouchi and Araki-ryu. The Takeda family art DID have "jujutsu" methods though, as this can be seen clearly in the Heiho Okugi-sho, which Ellis agrees looks kind of like the typical jujutsu of a number of ryu-ha.
3) Unconventional transmission.
Sokaku did not teach the art in the standard koryu way, I think that can be agreed upon. He had met Kano Jigoro (Judo), and may have been influenced with the direction he was taking with traditional jujutsu (?). But for the most part, Sokaku did not stay in a dojo or any one place for very long, but rather, claimed to have taught some 30,000 students through 7-10 day seminars throughout the country. It is therefore understandable that Sokaku would not have carried with him (on foot) an array of training weapons, or, required that interested students attending a seminar bring a number of training weapons with them when the main focus of the art at that time was towards teaching military and police practical modern day methods.
Students like Sagawa, Horikawa and Ueshiba were some of the few close personal students of Sokaku, and as such, appear to have been taught "everything" - including the historical methods - in hopes that they would transmit the art to future generations. They now represent three well known transmissions of the art, and Ueshiba's close relationship to Sokaku would explain why such methods are included in modern day aikido. It is also understandable that these teachers may not include training weapons for every "weapon" technique because this was not how they were taught the methods by Sokaku originally, for the reasons submitted above.
Since Sokaku taught the art unconventionally by koryu standards, and seemed to constantly teach "new" techniques, constantly developing his methods throughout his lifetime, it makes since that Daito-ryu is often referred to as a "principle based art" - perhaps the first in this regard (though of course all Japanese arts are technically based on principles; ie: kata). Sokaku would have had to adapt the art somewhat in order to teach modern police and military practical applications (based on principles). So for principle based techniques that are geared towards modern applicability, he apparently did not consider training weapons critical to have been a critical inclusion.
In closing, I'd say that we'll probably never know for sure what is the "correct" history. However, one direction that might lead to credibilty (or not) would be to further research the history of any Aizu methods that were taught/used within Edo castle in third party documentation (any takers?). I'd say that what we DO know of history definitely provides us with the reasonable possibility that the history Daito-ryu claims is (largely) accurate.
Sorry for such a long post, but there was a lot to reply to!
Regards,
Nathan Scott
Dear Nathan,
I'd like to talk more about this topic, since it suggests several questions that are still very obscure in Daito-ryu history.
I assume all the posters are familiar with the article "Shiro Saigo - Judo's Secret Weapon?", which you may find here .
The article deals a lot more on judo, but there are interesting incongruencies that are noted there regarding Daito-ryu, in particular the relationship between Takeda Sokaku and Saigo Tanomo, but also the problem regarding the death of Sokaku's grandfather.
In any case, Takeda Tokimune and others exponents in Daito-ryu of various organizations all repeatedly said Takeda Sokaku learned this oshikiuchi from Hoshina Chikanori/Saigo Tanomo.
Then we're facing an interesting dilemma: while certainly Takeda Sokaku was one of the greatest martial geniuses of Japan, and certainly added a great deal of his impressive experience, it seems unlikely that he developed by himself the whole curriculum of the school, that contains more than 2600 techniques, both armed and not.
There is also the famous Takeda lineage of Daito-ryu sokes starting from Takeda Kunitsugu down to Takeda Tokimune (and now, depending on political opinions, to Takeda Masanobu, albeit separated from the actual knowledge of the techniques).
Therefore the original story narrated to us by present-day Daito-ryu masters is that the art known as Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (but let me remember Takeda Sokaku called it at first Yamato-ryu, and later changed to Daito-ryu Jujutsu since one of his pupils told him now the kanji were read like that)was "diffused" by Takeda Sokaku who learnt it from his father, his grandfather and also from Saigo Tanomo, actually blending these learnings with what he himself learnt.
Takeda Tokimune then organized and formalized the katas more like we know them today, also giving a name to each technique.
My personal opinion is that the art is indeed ancient, and of course comprised of many armed techniques, later changed to purely jujutsu, this despite what otherwise serious researchers like Mr. Serge Mol say regarding the uncertain history of Daito-ryu, only based on the fact it wasn't registered in public summaries of active schools of the time.
And we should also remember what Takeda Tokimune said in one interview with Mr. Pranin: Ippondori was Takeda Shingen's favorite technique!
Judasith
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